Curse

DarkGanni · May 29, 2007, 08:47 AM // 08:47

Just trying to point out flatbows aren't that crap as you think

Luna Star · May 29, 2007, 09:12 AM // 09:12

flatbows are crap, and if you wanna interrupt you should standing at the guy's face anyway, recurve are best for interrupting no need for rtw or fw, gives you a free slot.

Sekoria · May 29, 2007, 10:53 AM // 10:53

Like people said, flatbows can be used as well as any other bow. I usually carry a recurve and a flatbow depending on the build I play, but just because some people prefer to use flatbows and can use them efficiently doesn't mean that people who prefer other bows should act as know-it-all jerks.

Just food for thought

Saphatorael · May 29, 2007, 02:46 PM // 14:46

Nvm...

messageistooshort, bah

Amy Awien · May 29, 2007, 03:44 PM // 15:44

When used in the wrong way, every bow is crap.

Series · May 29, 2007, 03:48 PM // 15:48

^Flatbows own for ganking NPCs in GvG, AB, FA, etc...

Bow skills are fine how they are. A bow isn't a "brute force" weapon in this game designed to do massive damage. Bows skillfully take down the enemy by means other than massive damage.

lennymon · May 29, 2007, 04:22 PM // 16:22

@anyone who is actually upset that Anet isn't going to make bow skill extra-game-breaking-leet: Go play wow...

Gaile and the Devs are right, Rangers do not need to be imbalanced by making bow skills deal more damage. All that would accomplish is a complete retooling over time (think nerf whirlpool) of all other ranger builds... If bow skills are upgraded, expertise gets nerfed, then wilderness, then beast mastery... It would be inevitable in order to maintain a balance. Rangers may not be perfect, but there can't be a perfect profession and maintain a balanced game.

TwinRaven · May 29, 2007, 06:07 PM // 18:07

hmmmmm....

There are a variety of bows available for a variety of purposes...flatbows included. The bickering over the validity of its use/non-use only serves to illustrate the th lack of imagination of any who suggest they are useless...A preference is understood and appreciated, a pointless condemnation over an opinion wastes valuable ones and zeros.

Damage output + survivability always seems to run a very thin line for me...other than niche builds, it seems rangers are always stuck with having 3 attributes in which to place points no matter the build if the want to 1. manage energy/expertise, 2. survive&cause conditions/wilderness survival and 3. deal damage/marksmanship....seems to me all other classes can make do with a division between 2 attributes with the same end result. Delving into the secondary classes a little deeper is the result of trying to increase damage output while not sacrificing survivability and energy management...hence the toucher.

Using secondary attributes from the elementalist, dervish, paragon and ritualist classes I have attempted to maximize damage through all sorts of odd combinations of damage buffs. Every one seems only to work situationally...Currently, I'm running secondary ritualist using channeling spells/weapon spells to greater effect than bow skills alone...it would be nice to be able to do -98 lightening damage every five seconds with a bow attack, but Spirit Rift at 10 channeling out damages any single bow attack at the same pace for the attribute investment. Used with Prepared Shot for energy return using Read the Wind and a couple other skills from the channeling magic attribute, I outdamage my barrage build and effectively hit mobs in singles or groups (yay splinter weapon)...problem is: I can't play a pure ranger, relying on my bow alone to do this kind of damage...I often resort to playing a beast master (which I'm usually happy to do) just so I can see hits of -100 from time to time...you just can't get that with a bow.

DOT calculations often show sets of skills and conditions through standard damage builds to be fairly effective, but even so...A heavy hit can often be more satisfying than gradually whittling away at an enemy over time...needling shot at a high marksmanship doing -30,-30,-30,-30,-30 over 5 or so seconds or -50,-100 from two hits from your pet or ritualist spells in the same time frame...two hits seems more satisfying.

So, buffs for a bow are NOT a necessity, but some fixes would be helpful...keen arrows as mentioned. I'd be happy with a self heal that didn't take so freaking long to cast....too many times has Troll Ungent been interrupted to my dismay...only other self heals are in another class or Beast mastery....guess which I go with...

lennymon · May 29, 2007, 08:51 PM // 20:51

vamp touch? ;P But yeah, I'd love to see a Keen Arrow that actually worked as described, and not the weenie fix (reword the skill so that it sucks er I mean so that the description is now as sucky as the skill)

um guys... what bow is better has how much to do with this thread? that's right... nada.

DKS · May 29, 2007, 09:16 PM // 21:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by TwinRaven

hmmmmm....
Damage output + survivability always seems to run a very thin line for me...other than niche builds, it seems rangers are always stuck with having 3 attributes in which to place points no matter the build if the want to 1. manage energy/expertise, 2. survive&cause conditions/wilderness survival and 3. deal damage/marksmanship....

You don't HAVE to everything with a ranger you know, I can survive just fine without wilderness survival, and you don't HAVE to spread conditions as a ranger(and even if you want to, burning arrow=marksmanship, screaming shot/hunter's shot=marksmanship, pin down/crip shot=marksmanship, and even with just 3 points in wilderness you can get AP to last around 8 seconds per hit...)

Orphan Anthem · May 29, 2007, 09:34 PM // 21:34

Recurve bows are the best bows for interupting.
Flatbows are good at killing NPC's in PvP when the NPC's are on a wall and your on the ground.

Jetdoc · May 29, 2007, 09:42 PM // 21:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luna Star

flatbows are crap, and if you wanna interrupt you should standing at the guy's face anyway, recurve are best for interrupting no need for rtw or fw, gives you a free slot.

Quote:

Originally Posted by -Loki-

A flatbow is good because it actually hits when under RTW? So, that makes the other bows godlike, since you don't need a skill devoted to making them not miss anything but a stationary target?

I exclusively use Flatbows and Recurve Bows...

...and honestly I can't find any good circumstance to use a Longbow that would warrant the painfully slow refire rate. When I'm worried about missing with my Flatbow, I usually switch to my Recurve.

Ensign · May 29, 2007, 10:14 PM // 22:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove

I dunno, looking through the list, most of them are ok.

Yeah, my general impression from looking at bow attacks is that they failed at the design level, not at the balance level. Far too many bow attacks are dumb Power Shot variants that you really don't want to make more than marginal.

I mean, just look at the list of boring, +damage effects:
Point Blank Shot
Zojun's Shot
Arcing Shot
Crossfire
Focused Shot
Keen Arrow
Marauder's Shot
Penetrating Attack
Power Shot
Precision Shot
Sundering Attack

Are any of those skills that you really want to become staples on Ranger bars?

On the other hand if you look at the skills that actually do something, you find that most of them are playable somewhere. The only ones that don't see any play have effects that are really bad - Called Shot, Determined Shot, Needling Shot, Splinter Shot - or only make sense on a 'damage Ranger' type character where the problem isn't with the skills themselves, but with the lack of supporting mechanics that makes the Ranger worse than every other physical at raw damage (very weak weapon DPS, and a lack of attack speed and deep wound springing to mind).

The big problem is that there aren't many interesting effects that aren't elite. The only skills that do something desirable that aren't elite are Distracting Shot, Savage Shot, Concussion Shot, Debilitating Shot, Hunter's Shot, Screaming Shot, and Pin Down. What are you supposed to do, balance-wise with those skills?

The only real changes I'd like to see are buffs to Crippling Shot and Pin Down (condition removal is so much better than when those were nerfed, that these skills are no longer good at what they do), and nerfs to Broad Head Arrow and Concussion Shot (reduce the Daze duration). All of the other skills are ok where they are. To make substantive changes to the profession, they need to add new skills, or rework existing skills thoroughly.

Peace,
-CxE

GreatLich · May 29, 2007, 10:51 PM // 22:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

The big problem is that there aren't many interesting effects that aren't elite. The only skills that do something desirable that aren't elite are Distracting Shot, Savage Shot, Concussion Shot, Debilitating Shot, Hunter's Shot, Screaming Shot, and Pin Down. What are you supposed to do, balance-wise with those skills?

Most of these are too good not to take, but seem to be fine as is wich is probably due to most other bowskills being sub par?

Quote:

The only real changes I'd like to see are buffs to Crippling Shot and Pin Down (condition removal is so much better than when those were nerfed, that these skills are no longer good at what they do), and nerfs to Broad Head Arrow and Concussion Shot (reduce the Daze duration). All of the other skills are ok where they are. To make substantive changes to the profession, they need to add new skills, or rework existing skills thoroughly.

The remarks in parantheses seem contradictory somehow. I could agree on reducing the daze duration because BHA and Conc. Shot cover themselves in terms of recharge/duration (making a silencing bow string gravy)
But if as you say condition removal is better than before, BHA can't be that good so as to warrant a nerf?
Maybe the issue isn't neccesarily the skills but the fact that dazed is just too nice a condition...

Age · May 29, 2007, 11:31 PM // 23:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by -Loki-

If you don't know what bow to use for interrupting, I'm merely going to ignore your previous comments about interrupt skills.

When I made up and was playing my Ranger through Proph. I was mostly still reading up on Monks and a little on Warriors.I may have neglected the part of what is the right bow for what purpose.Sure I may have used a flatbow but it did work and get the jop done.I have found out that I do in fact have recurve bow which I probably got in around Droks.I don't buy things for X-mount of gold.I got skills and other things to think about.

When I made up a Ranger that got me into the profession as I tried once before and was stuck at Borliss Pass for sometime.I made up a PvP premade the old Fiana trapper build and when I used that I used a recurve for pindown and savage shot.That is what got me to remake my RP Ranger up.

lennymon · May 29, 2007, 11:40 PM // 23:40

I'm gonna have to go ahead and dissagree with you on some of these Ensign. Needling Shot, Crossfire, Arcing Shot and in theory were it actually working Keen Arrow are all fine skills and serve a purpose against the right target.
As far as 'staples'? I don't think my entire bar should be filled with staples, is yours? Yea I run at least one interrupt (disrupting) but usually 2, then pretty much everything else is application oriented.
The mere fact that no ranger bar is complete without an interrupt or two certainly doesn't therefore make all non interrupts sub-standard. It all depends on the situation. At least try to be as flexible as the profession we're discussing here...

Perhaps *because* the meta has made conditions spamming less viable you *should* consider other options on your bar?

pingu666 · May 30, 2007, 12:02 AM // 00:02

needling is fun with glass arrows and a vamp bow, and any kind of buffs really

TwinRaven · May 30, 2007, 01:03 AM // 01:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by DKS

You don't HAVE to everything with a ranger you know, I can survive just fine without wilderness survival, and you don't HAVE to spread conditions as a ranger(and even if you want to, burning arrow=marksmanship, screaming shot/hunter's shot=marksmanship, pin down/crip shot=marksmanship, and even with just 3 points in wilderness you can get AP to last around 8 seconds per hit...)

...and when there isn't a monk around to heal you, what do you do without points in Wildreness Survival? I know I don't HAVE to have a self heal if there is a monk with nothing better to do than keep me alive, but in PvE this is not practical nor wise. PvP maybe, but if i were a monk and had to constantly heal the dumbass ranger with no self-heal in PvE, I'd be pissed.

You can make a ranger with any build you like, but my point is EVERY other profession can put all of their points into two attributes and make a good damage dealing build with plenty of self healing...Dervish, Paragon, Monk (duh), Mesmer, Necromancer, Warrior, Ritualist, Assassin, Elementalist...ALL of them can invest in their primary attribute and one other and make a self-sufficient build that does substanial damage AND self heals. Name one build that uses Two and only Two primary attributes of the ranger that survives well under pressure, has few energy management issues AND does substantial bow damage...I predict none (please prove me wrong). You have to head to builds that do not rely on the bow for damage...Trapper, Beastmaster and the like...or rely on secondary professions and have everyone bitch that you're too powerful (i.e. toucher)...A good +30-35 non-elite, non-conditional (i.e. other skills disabled - crap) hit would be nice...-98 lightening damage every 5 seconds using ritualist as secondary (channeling at 10), why nothing half that good in marksmanship at 16? (call me the devil's advocate here

my main toon is a ranger and it seems certain changes in the game over time keep making it harder...nerfed my trapper, my runner, my beastie boy etc...a little extra bow damage might make up for it

)...just fixing Keen Arrow would probably be a start.

Dr Strangelove · May 30, 2007, 01:28 AM // 01:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by lennymon

I'm gonna have to go ahead and dissagree with you on some of these Ensign. Needling Shot, Crossfire, Arcing Shot and in theory were it actually working Keen Arrow are all fine skills and serve a purpose against the right target.

The key thing with all the power shot clones is that they're building block skills. If you bar consists of just a whole bunch of +damage skills, you will suck. However, you can make good use of most of the skills by using them in specific ways, or in combination with other skills.

For example, needling shot sucks if it exists in a vacuum. Seventeen damage, and a chance of instant recharge, yippee. However, when you add in a conjure, preparation, and a vamp bow, and only use needling shot on foes below 50% health, needling shot gets very scary, very quickly.

This is really the case for most of the bow attacks, you need to put together a few synergizing skills on your bar to make them interesting. However the "Staple" skills Ensign mentioned ARE good enough to exist in a vacuum. They're "finished product skills" that have a nice effect all by themselves. They key thing on most ranger bars is balancing out your big combo skills with your staple skills, which is really made interesting by the limited space on your skillbar.

lennymon · May 30, 2007, 01:29 AM // 01:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by TwinRaven

...blah blah blah, Name one build that uses Two and only Two primary attributes of the ranger that survives well under pressure, has few energy management issues AND does substantial bow damage...I predict none (please prove me wrong).

See here's the thing, Ranger ALSO has 2 *highly* damaging attributes besides marksmanship... you may have heard of Beast Mastery (yup, high damage and self heal with just BM and expertise), and Wilderness Survival (yup, high damage and self heal, WS and expertise). Thinking in the box, way to go!

@ Dr Strangelove:
Yeah, thats exactly what I'm saying, just because a skill has +damage and no utility doesn't mean it sucks. If used correctly (this is really the key) ANY halfway decent skillbar can be effective...yup...even if it includes power shot. If you use a high damage skill as a finisher, or a spike skill it's all good in most cases.